It's actually funny that you mention if..., because it seems that they went full circle with P3P. if... let you choose the gender of your character, and now P3P let's you do the same thing. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't if... the first game to let you do that in SMT, spin-off, mainline, or otherwise? Either way, I kinda wish that they'd make another game with Tammy as the main character, just because we got to see her basically grow up in the the early Persona games, and I think it'd be cool to see her as a kickass devil summoner. That and it'd be a step forward for female protagonists not being blatantly sexually objectified in a game for a change, which is one of the many reasons I've been digging on this series for past few years now.

Speaking of obscure SMT games though, I just recently came across soundtrack music for SMT NINE on youtube. The music sounds awesome. I'd actually not mind playing it though sadly it's Japanese only...and Xbox only. I do have a question though. So Persona and if... are spin-offs, so are the Devil Summoner games as well? Is DDS a spin-off? I'm kinda confused on that.



Nice. I've already finished the game twice, so if you if you ever wanted any demon passwords, I can hook ya up, if you need any.

While I see people in SMT threads on 4chan talking about what games belong to the "Amala Network," which seems to be the fandom's way of discounting certain games from the mainline SMT canon, this is how I understand it.

Shin Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei 2 on the Super Famicom are the first mainline SMT games, with SMT 1 starting in the present day and ending up after the apocalypse. If.... is like the modern day demon appearances going on during SMT 1, except it's just a what if scenario and all the action takes place in this one school. Tamaki from If.... shows up in the Persona 2 games.

Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine Online is supposed to take place between SMT 1 and 2. Nocturne is SMT3.

Devil Summoner 1 and Soul Hackers (the 32-bit games) are basically SMT in the modern day without the apocalyptic trappings. I don't think those games have any cross continuity with the others but I haven't played them and they never got an English release. The Raidou Kuzunoha games somehow tie into Persona with the appearance of the Kuzunoha Detective Agency. This is where I start to lose track of it. I've heard it argued that the Raidou games fit into the main SMT timeline, but despite the Kuzunoha Agency showing up in Persona, Persona actually follows the "what if" timeline from If.... Someone in Persona 4 also makes a reference to Raidou. Maybe he's regarded as a fictional character in that universe like Sherlock Holmes.

Digital Devil Saga seems to be its own thing. The Demi-Fiend from Nocturne

Spoiler: show

is in DDS1 as an optional boss, but that game takes place in a computer. I haven't finished it yet so I'm not sure on the specifics.

I don't think Majin Tensei and Devil Survivor fit into any timeline. Never played Strange Journey.

Persona 3 and 4 are weird in that they seem to treat the Persona 1 and 2 continuity as an alternate universe. Whereas Persona 1 and 2 are tied closely together and Tamaki and her friends are referred to as devil summoners (as in, actually summoning demons to fight alongside them and not just casting spells with personae), in 3 and 4 you're fighting shadows instead of the classic demons and no one seems to be summoning shit. Then there's the MMO from the Hermit link in P3 referencing P1 and Innocent Sin. Plus you've got Eternal Punishment's own alternate reality within its own continuity. I've heard, again from 4channers, that 3 and 4 follow EP but they have their own world threatening crises because Philemon and Nyarlathotep gave up interfering with humanity, but I'm just not seeing it.

I'm probably confusing more than helping. I suggest anyone interested in the series read Kurt Kulata's writeup.

As for Persona not being SMT, people say that because the original Japanese name for Persona was Megami Ibunroku Persona: Be Your True Mind and they didn't start putting Shin Megami Tensei on the box until 3. Whatever. Raiders of the Lost Ark wasn't called an Indiana Jones movie until after Temple of Doom came out. They're developed by R&D 1 and you're using the same demons, they're SMT games.

Hrm. Well I figured that by introducing the Amala Network they were basically insinuating that all these games happen in multiple realities, which is how they can explain all the spin-offs and what have you. Actually, I think there is one nod to Persona and Persona 2 in Persona 3, aside from the MMO. Apparently there's a news broadcast on TV that seems to make reference to Ellen from Persona and Persona 2. It would make sense to me if the developers didn't wanna try to reference to the prior games that much since it'd had been a long time since Persona had a sequel, and people might not know who the older characters were.

On the subject of Raidou Kuzunoha, I wonder about how it ties into the overall series, because on the one hand, as you said, there's the Kuzunoha Detective Agency, so there's a nod to Persona and the older Devil Summoner games. At the end of Soulless Army you go into the final dungeon, which is this place called the Akarana Corridor, which is apparently some weird place outside of space and time, filled with lost souls from the past and the future. One such person makes reference to the first lunar landing. Another seems to make reference to to the nuclear attack in the first SMT. And then there's also "time tourists" from the future who can transport their souls or something to view the past as a form of recreation. Even weirder is that they talk like the main character from Stranger in a Strange Land ("You grok?").

During the course of the game, Raidou even winds up being sent to a parallel reality where he runs into a slightly more aggressive and battle-scarred version of himself. However, I think where people might start trying to fit the Kuzunoha games into the main series is with King Abaddon, since Lucifur plays a prominent role in the game, as well as the Fiends, and the conflict of Law versus Chaos becomes more obvious, especially near the end of the game where you will be challenged by a demon or an angel depending on your "alignment". So either Kuzunoha takes place in the distant past of either if.../Persona, or in the past of the mainline SMT games. Or it could be neither.

I have beaten DDS I & II, and I won't spoil anything, but in the second game it becomes very apparent there is a "law versus chaos" element to the story, though it isn't fueled by the intrusion of outside forces (no YHWH or Lucifur).

I'm sure all will be answered in Jack Bros. 2 on the 3DS.

REEEEEAAALLY shouldn't have visited that Megami Tensei wiki. There's two hours I'll never get back, but at least I'm more knowledged!

Thanks for all the info though. The more I learn about this series the more I'm drawn to it over other traditional RPG series. Since a lot of the games are still hanging around at decent prices, I may start building a small collection of the stuff that interests me.

Sorry if this is a little scatterbrained a reply...The Kuzunoha's show up in P2 to help spread rumors (which all become reality in those two games) and foil the villain/advance the plot.

In P4 one of the characters is a detective and has a long family line of detectives.

Since Devil Summoner is supposed to take place in the 1920s it may be that the Persona game Kuzunohas are the decendants of the Devil Summoner ones or just a little fan service reference to previous games. I'm not sure really.

I think the Demi-Fiend showing up in DDS1 is probably just an easter egg bonus boss sort of thing rather than something more substantial and plot-related going on. The fight is retarded hard and luck based, so I never attempted it (and got bored watching a LONG Youtube video). Nocturne was the most recent previous SMT game and uses the same engine as DDS1&2 afterall.

There's a Retronauts (episode 61) on Persona that has Nick Maragos from Atlus on it talking about the series. The Hermit SL and news you could see if you checked the TV were both changed to reference P2 instead of SMT1 or SMT2 in the Japanese release (I forget which and most of the details). The ending of The Answer and a few subtle things you see in P4 (basically the butterfly) both show Philemon is still around and while not directly intervening is still helping humanity along. Somebody had to provide the Contract and the power of the Wild Card. I don't remember if it was the Retronauts episode or the HG101 article, but Atlus has apparently said the Persona games all take place in the same world (...or "continuity" because of P2?).

I'm pretty sure that Nocturne is supposed to take place in the same world as SMT 1 & 2 just after one or more cycles of the birth, death, and re-birth of the world. People are pretty sure the first guy you meet in Nocturne is the protagonist from SMT2.

I've got Devil Summoner 2, but never was able to really get into it. It's kind of...odd. It's like if I'm watching a movie/playing a game/reading something/whatever and something happens. If I understand sort of the "rules" of the fictional world then it's like "Oh, I wonder if this will happen next?!" and have some idea of what could go on.

With Devil Summoner 2 I'm chasing some ninja guy on a roof for some reason. I get bonked on the head and wake up in Psychadelic Trippy Land with more masked ninja guys talking about weird stuff. I couldn't say I saw that coming. And what are these "Dark Realms" or whatever and why can Raidou go there? Maybe I should have played DS1 (couldn't find it locally or reasonably priced when I got DS2) or should have just trucked along a while longer and it would have made more sense/gotten good.
If the "SMT Game" announced for that is Jack Bros. 2 I'm holding you personally responsible!!

First off I've played and finished the first game. Though 2 references some things in Soulless Army (mostly joking off-handed remarks), you don't need to play Soulless Army to understand what's going on in 2. Also can't really recommend the first game if you're playing 2 because Army doesn't play nearly as smoothly as Abaddon does. The only thing you're really missing out on is Rasputin's awesomeness playing more prominently in Soulless Army and the fact that the final boss is a super battleship that turns into a giant demon-possessed, hate-fueled mech.

Anyway part of the Raidou games' style is that it's supposed to be like a silent movie from that era. That's why there's no voice acting (and the font matches up with silent movie text dialogue from that time period). The Dark Realms are essentially alternate dimensions of the Capital that are infested with demons. In the first DS they figured more prominently, but in Abaddon they don't get as focused on until about halfway through the game. As for the story...

I compare the story of DS2 to Persona 2 because they both use abstract concepts as the fulcrum upon which the story pivots. With P2 it was kotodama (the Joker Curse and spreading rumors to become reality). In DS2 it deals with the luck locusts stealing the good fortune of the Capital's citizenry to the point that it becomes like an avalanche effect and begins attracting greater misfortune to the Capital (including Lucifur and the Fiends, which is why I say DS2 reminded me of Nocturne to a degree).

The ninjas you encounter are a part of a secret clan of assassins that use the locusts as a tool for discrete assassination. This isn't a major spoiler because you do find this out early on. The reason for their running rampant in the capital does lead to major spoilers which I won't go into. Needless to say I found that how the story unfolded in King Abaddon was pretty damn interesting; perhaps moreso than in any other SMT I've played so far.

But do keep trucking along, because I think you'll find that it does get better. Also helps that though the game has some dark moments, it's all around pretty light-hearted around the same level as Persona 4 (well maybe not as much, given the ending). I will say that having a decent understanding of how Japanese view things like family duty and loyalty will probably help you better understand why things in this game unfold as they do, though honestly that shouldn't be a problem.

I also brag about this game's consistently amazing soundtrack, several of which are remixed versions of the older Devil Summoner and Soul Hackers' soundtracks.

Also, Geirin Kuzunoha epitomizes everything I love and appreciate and respect about Shin Megami Tensei and Atlus in general.

And thanks for linking that podcast, I'm listening to it straight away.

Spyda would be proud

I’d just like to complement what Bpwner said, Persona, DDS, Devil Summoner, Devil Children etc. are all spin-offs. I don’t consider if... a spin-off, to me it’s a transitional game between the main series and the Persona series. if... is a “what if Tokyo hadn’t been nuked” game. And from this new timeline we have the Devil Summoner and the Persona series. Oh, and if you think about it, SMT is already a spin-off of the Megami Tensei games.

I’ve seen some people trying to connect every single Megaten game and while I think it’s admirable of them, IMHO, it’s a tiresome and pointless activity because it seems the newer games just said “fuck you” to the older ones and ditched some established conventions.



I get shivers down my spine whenever I see this article. How is it possible that someone who has played so many Megaten games doesn’t know jackshit about the series? If you don’t believe me read this article. Biggest POS I’ve read. It irritates me that people treat his word as the gospel truth.

I must admit, however, that he does say some really interesting stuff (and I like the pics), just don’t believe in everything he writes and you should be fine.



Yup, you’re right. And about objectified women, I don’t know if you’ve noticed or if you’ll agree with me, but I love how Kazuma Kaneko doesn’t objectify the women he draws. He can draw a naked woman and it always looks like he’s doing that for a reason, a non-sexual one.



Actually, in the Japanese version the Hermit s. link is a reference to the first Megami Tensei.



I will, as soon as I’m finished with my thesis.

Never seen that one.

Regarding Innocent Sin, I've heard it his way, and then I've heard Retronauts podcast with the Atlus guy who said IS probably wasn't released over here because the localizers wouldn't be able to finish it and Eternal Punishment in time for Cirnomas. Other than that, I've never seen how SMT fans regard Kurt's articles since I don't go to SMT fansites.

So, I'm officially starting Nocturne this week sometime and have a few questions. Note that I've played a couple hours already to get the gist of how everything goes down (OH GOD DO I HATE MISSING ATTACKS SO MUCH ALREADY! AGILITY! GIVE ME MORE, SNAKE!), and I'm not really asking for a direct route on how to play the game, but some advice/opinions from experienced players is welcome.

Concerning my main character's build. A lot of games with this kind of building system seem to favor an ALL OR NOTHING approach to choosing how you want your character to be. For example, all points in physical, all points in magical. I guess what I really want to know is if there's any way you can really fuck yourself so bad that you just can't recover from it with stat allocation? Is it feasible to have a balance of both Physical and Magical stats with your abilities and have a roster of demons that can fill in the gaps for you?

In the Persona games I've played (which I understand are a fairly different beast) I tended to always play a more supportive role as a healer, buffer, de-buffer type and let my teammates take care of damage, with me pitching in with really powerful power/mind charged attacks when my support duties weren't needed. Given the Protagonist's versatility with magatamas, and the hard limit of 8 skills, can I build myself around this same premise and, again, not fuck myself over, or would a more aggressive approach be wiser?

Guess this post seems kinda nooby, but eh. ;D

You can pretty much play the way you did in P3/P4 in Nocturne. That's basically the way I played it when I went through. Had a mix of buff/debuff skills, a few spells, and some physical attacks, and let my demons cover the difference. In fact that's probably the best way to go when fighting the fiends, since you really want to be flexible with many of them, and in general buffing/debuffing in this game is a lot more important than it is in P3/P4, so definitely try to grab demons with Dekunda/Dekaja as soon as you can (there is a Magatama with all the -kaja skills along with Dekunda and Dekaja).

The main thing with Nocturne is that the main character learns a lot of unique skills that none of the other enemies in the game can learn, and he also doesn't learn the agi/bufu/zan/zio skills like the demons do. Instead he gets special versions of those element spells (like Frost Breath and Fire Breath). Also, Nocturne's version of Power Charge is called Focus. Magic has no equivalent in the game. Most physical skills are few in the early game, and what few there are mostly suck. So magic is a good way to go early-to-mid game. Then as you get access to better skills like Deathbound and Deadly Fury, you can focus more on physical damage if you want. Though having at least one good physical skill and one elemental skill is good to have so you can cover your bases with bosses that might resist magic or physical attacks.

As for stats, the Magatama give better stat bonuses as you get new ones, so you got some wiggle room with your stats. You can also find incenses which will boost your stats by one point for each one you find (there's a trick in some of the shops in the game that you can use to farm incenses for 10k macca, but I won't go into that). And even after you reach level 99, you can keep leveling up and learning skills, so the game isn't as obtuse as it may first appear.

This game is daunting at first, but once you get into the groove you can kinda get used to it. Though early on this game will kick your ass, especially in the Labyrinth of Amala (if you choose to do it).

Oh God. Between the MegaTen wiki and Kurt's Hardcore Gaming article, I've lost hours upon hours of my life that I will never ever get back.

Now that I think back on it, saying that might have been a little...stupid of me. Especially considering that when Argilla tunes, she talks using her breasts.

^TBH, I don’t see that as objectifying, Kaneko draws a lot of bizarre things and to me that’s just one in a long list.

Yeah. I do like his artstyle though, especially with human characters in the games. I swear to god I know someone that looks exactly like Roland from DDS2. The hair, glasses, demeanor, face, everything. The guy is even a conniseur of alcohol. If you made a live-action movie out of DDS, you could probably get him to play Roland because that's how much alike that they look.

I think that's what kinda drew me to these games as I started getting into them. Mainly that many of the characters look like people I would meet in real life. The games also feel very culturally aware, kinda like "Yeah, this is in Japan, but we know there's other countries in the world and we acknowledge that." P2 with the Nazis and Taiwanese mafia and Lisa Silverman. The latter half of DDS taking place in the US somewhere. P3 had the cultural exchange student, and the MC's parents are working out of the country in P4. And I definitely identify with the setting of P4 because I live in the same kind of place. And of course King Abaddon, which was during the period where Japan was modernizing itself and sending many of its military and intellectuals abroad (especially to the US) to study. Victor, Rasputin, and especially Geirin and Nagi.

I love how much can be inferred about Geirin just by how he's dressed. The guy is definitely worldy and has done a lot of traveling. And he's decked out like a US calvaryman, complete with SAA and a saber, and all of his attacks are western-themed. I could easily envision Geirin like 20 or 30 years younger running around fucking up demons with Wyatt Earp or Doc Holiday. And the way Nagi is dressed, she could probably star in an Indiana Jones movie.

But what really attracts me to this series is that it isn't trying to create a fantastical world (ala FF), but instead takes the real world and injects fantastical elements into it, and does so in a way that's very interesting. Like using computers to summon demons, or rumors becoming reality, and transposing that in a setting that people are familar with, and populated with characters that aren't removed from reality. It's just so refreshing to see, especially with how most Japanese RPGs are these days, and also pretty cool to see that the developers seem to appreciate their fans outside of Japan.

I'm probably gushing like a school girl now, so I'll stop.